Technical help with open air filter and new manifold.

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:18 pm

jaelee wrote:not necessarily, it may not run optimally but it'll work, and yes it's just a matter of tuning or dialing it in

hmmmm well the whole purpose of the whole thing was to improve the performance sadly and now you think it might not run optimally? Shit!

My old carb had these wierd main jets that I could not find anywhere even ebay and so I thought switching to a carb that uses kiehin main jets would be better.

Why would it not run optimally? once i get it all tuned shouldn't it run better? It will be getting more fuel.

jaelee · Post by **jaelee** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:38 pm

let me re phrase that, when the weather changes you may run a bit rich or lean but that's not a big deal, you are not at a high enough level of tune for the weather to make dramatic changes. I'm just running a foam filter now and it's fine, before that i wasn't running a filter at all.

jbcollier · Post by **jbcollier** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:56 pm

My advice would be to fix the old manifold and put it all back the way it was. If and when you get a cylinder kit, we could then look at fitting a larger carb.

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:54 pm

jbcollier wrote:My advice would be to fix the old manifold and put it all back the way it was. If and when you get a cylinder kit, we could then look at fitting a larger carb.

ya I am kinda considering that but.......then I get myself back to where I started and after 100 in cash expenditures.

PS while there are more scooters in vancouver the shops here are useless.

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:27 pm

jbcollier wrote:My advice would be to fix the old manifold and put it all back the way it was. If and when you get a cylinder kit, we could then look at fitting a larger carb.

what is wrong with using a larger carb on a stock cylinder?

jbcollier · Post by **jbcollier** » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:39 pm

In order for a carb to work, it requires sufficient air flow. The larger the carb, the more air flow is required to make it work. This air flow is generated by the engine. Small and/or conservatively tuned engines generate less air flow than large and/or performance tuned engines.

Carbs for large/performance engines tend to be larger to take advantage of the extra air flow possible: bigger hole equals less restriction. While this gives greater high end performance, the low end suffers because the lower air flow at lower rpms is not enough to make the performance carb work correctly.

Sticking a larger carb on a small/conservative engine gives you the worst of both worlds as there is even less air flow at lower rpm and not even enough at high rpm.

It's all a matched system and there is no free lunch. Simply installing a larger carb will, in all likelihood, result in lower performance and fuel efficiency.

jaelee · Post by **jaelee** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 12:32 am

It's all a matched system and there is no free lunch.

i completely agree...it takes more than fast parts to make a scooter go fast. it takes some knowledge and some ability. lots of trial and error is involved too and you can't be afraid to break things too.

jbcollier · Post by **jbcollier** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:04 am

Just a late comment on the open air filter question:

Horse Pucky.

All engines, regardless of filtering system, are subject to performance changes as the weather changes. Air box, pod filter, heck, even no filter, will all be the same.

The only way to control this is to have an intake air temperature system such as many automobiles do. They mix warm air off the engine exhaust manifold with incoming air to achieve a constant temperature. No motorcycle or scooters that I know of has such a system.

Exposed air filters will get dirtier quicker and most air boxes actually provide a performance boost but that's another matter.

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:51 am

crap well wish I had consulted with you guys more before hand.

The guy who sold me the parts naturally had an incentivemove as much as he could to me for his business and so perhaps I got tricked.

What irks me is the guy who said he could do the install for me was able to do the install( but only install) but omitted a lot of the key information seen here.

So i guess I am stuck in a connumdrum now which you guys can give some advice on.

We chose to go back to the stock cylinder because when we installed the 50 mm big bore kit we had the piston on and after we put the cylinder on we realized the piston was rising about 3-4 mm above the cylinder and and when we put the cylinder head on it would hit the cylinder head, we thought.

Afterwards I did some reading and the stroke my scooter is 48 mm while the honda dio which it is based on is only 40 mm and so the mismatch on the kit. Sadly, after market parts for my scooter are hard to find anywhere ( i bet i could find them in korea but my comprehension of korean is only at a basic level certainly not enough to do online research for scooter parts).

so i have been having to use honda dio after market parts which i have not had any issues with so far.

One potential solution suggested was to buy several gaskets by several I mean perhaps 6 or 8 to place to allow the necessary room for the piston.
I was unsure about this at the time as I became skeptical about my friends mechanical abilities, aftering seeing all the issues occur while taking the scooter apart.

Anyway so long story short
1) would using the gaskets overcome the issue with the piston rising too far? or will this just create further issues?
2) i was informed as well that by going to such a larger big bore kit ( 50 mm), i will not really be able to use it as a commuter bike anymore. I was also told that while riding it I would no longer be able to give it full throttle for extended periods of time as it would overheat the engine.
= this information was given midway through the install and so....i was quite pissed.
but is it true?
3) I was told that perhaps if i wanted to maintain the scooter as a commuter I should get a 65 cc big bore as it will give a boost in performance and I can still use it on a regular basis. Will the 65 cc work ok with the carb i have?

4) My final option is to put the stock intake back in and find another 19 mm carb and go from there. I would really not like to go back to the original as I was unable to find main jets for it and it was running quite lean all the time.

anyway thanks for all your help and lesson learned
1) don't trust the guy selling the parts
2) dont trust the guy trying to sell you the service to install them.
3) trust crude city scooter club

thanks for being honest everyone

jbcollier · Post by **jbcollier** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:30 am

If the gaskets are just sheet alloy, then you could just put in the required multiples though it would be better to have a custom spacer made up out of the correct thickness of alloy plate.

Frankly, it sounds to me that the large kit you have will not make for a scoot you would actually enjoy riding around town. Going to the 65 cc kit will still leave the problem of spacing the cyclinder properly. I would go back to stock and enjoy it for what it is.

If you still running lean with the stock carb, you can get jet drills and gauges here:

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?P ... D43%2D5716

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?P ... D43%2D5715

Even better, they are located in the lower mainland.

Remember, go up in small stages!

Post by **Kevin** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:57 pm

Are you sure your stroke is 48mm... Alot of the Asian bikes that copied the honda AF16 and AF18 motors are closer to 40mm strokes. Something is odd.

From the little bit of reading i've done on the Dio motors, I find horizontal and vertical types, maybe the kit you got is for a horizontal and not the vertical that you need?

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:12 pm

k so I decided rather than sink myself further into this mess I will change plans.

Would switching to a 19 mm carb and staying with the stock intake be ok then? I would prefer not to have to buy the jet drills as like I said i could not find the main jets anywhere online.

I got a delorto one from jay I can use and or perhaps get a keihin from a guy here.

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:14 pm

Kevin wrote:Are you sure your stroke is 48mm... Alot of the Asian bikes that copied the honda AF16 and AF18 motors are closer to 40mm strokes. Something is odd.

From the little bit of reading i've done on the Dio motors, I find horizontal and vertical types, maybe the kit you got is for a horizontal and not the vertical that you need?

hmmm well what i got off a message forum.

Someone else said daelim is 40 and honda dio is 39.

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:17 pm

http://www.hondaspree.net/phpBB3/viewto ... lit=daelim

DaelimRacer · Post by **DaelimRacer** » Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:24 pm

But long run I still would like to do a big bore kit install.
Just kinda a bitch this whole thing has fucked up so bad.

If i did a 65 cc big bore should I stick with the 19 mm carb then?

F*ck I wish there was a manual where I could find all this info.